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#1 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 11:44:07 AM
Steve Hunt
Steve Hunt
Handicap: 18
uk
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 32
As I sit at work ignoring my boring pile of work, I have found myself perusing various TSGer's scores, this has shown me that we as a group tend to hit the 36 point marker more than the average suggests we should. In fact people now expect to hit that or feel they have had an average game, when "experts" say that you should obtain that mark in about 20% of your games. I wonder if The TSG system is to generous with our handicaps and whether players would be willing to see a exceptional play cut brought in for hitting 36 pts more than 3 times in ten games or any other suggestion. I realise I maybe opening a can of worms here but am interested to see if anyone feels they are playing to often in the safe zone of 35-38pts and never going down in hc.
#2 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 6:43:40 PM
Roger Ireland
Roger Ireland
Handicap: 9
essex
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34
 you are dead right,  if you score over 36 then your h/c should be cut, so all the tsg golfers have a h/c that is higher than it should be,  the sss should not apply to your score only the par score, so 37 or more means you would be cut, but as all the h/c are to high, then we all play the same system, so its not unfair, its just not correct, so we all have a h/c above what it would or should be,  some courses you can score 41 points and still not be cut, soit is hard to get your h/c to come down were it should be, I hear this said all the time   Roger you should be off 6  , but i am not  at the moment its 10, and yes its to high, but so is yours and everyones,  this has been talked about for years now ,hope we wont be still talking about this for years to come
#3 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 6:57:19 PM
Roger Ireland
Roger Ireland
Handicap: 9
essex
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34
 A ps,  just looked at my last 20 games ,  if i was cut scoring over 36 and going up scoring less than 34   my h/c now  would be  8.4
#4 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 7:22:55 PM
Steve Hunt
Steve Hunt
Handicap: 18
uk
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 32
 That's sort of the point Roger, not having a pop at anyone in particular just that the system isn't forcing people to improve just letting them creep back up until they get comfortable and hit another big score and drop back to where they were. Would a more consistent cut make us strive for those extra gains, I'm not sure if it would but wanted people's thoughts to see if exceptional play cuts as a local club calls them would be welcomed.
#5 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 9:08:40 PM
Roger Ireland
Roger Ireland
Handicap: 9
essex
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34
 The problem with cuts outside of normal play, who going to make them!  in a club it is very differant to the tsg, there is a h/c sec,  etc, its there job if it is apprant  that a player is far better than his h/c, then he will be cut, but in the tsg all the h/c are to high, because of the system, it is different from how a club is run,  To put it right you need to change the system, because that is the problem,  so far its just you and me talking, lets hear from all of you out there,    what have anyone else got to say
#6 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 10:22:13 PM
Martin Brown
Martin Brown
Handicap: 20
essex
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Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 3
 I've no suggestions or experience on how to change it Roger, if indeed change was for the better. In essence yes the computer says we are all playing with an inflated h/c but we are all playing g in the same competition so points/prizes must surely swings it roundabouts. 
#7 Posted : Tuesday, August 15, 2017 10:54:04 PM
Roger Ireland
Roger Ireland
Handicap: 9
essex
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 34
 Hi, Martin,  what you say is true, its not unfair, but the  tsg is not run on the same system as  say a club, and it is because of this difference ,  it is only the tsg  which uses this system,  which makes everyones h/c higher than what it should be, which in turn makes it hard for us all to get our h/c down,  which was what this was about, see you tomorrow   
#8 Posted : Wednesday, August 16, 2017 7:14:45 AM
Judy Lilley
Judy Lilley
Handicap: 20
Kent
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 210
One thing you do need to watch is putting your scores in the right date order, otherwise interesting things happen.  It happened to me and I know I am not the only one, thus something to be careful of.
#9 Posted : Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:26:19 AM
Steve Hunt
Steve Hunt
Handicap: 18
uk
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 32
I wasn't advocating a committee Roger because they may not agree with me and in my world i'm always right :), I would be more direct and add a sub routine to the scoring system that looks at your last 10 games if you hit 36 or more 3 times it enforces an extra .5 cut. Ian would have to tell us if this was possible but it would take any arguments out of the equation. See if anyone else has a view.
#10 Posted : Wednesday, August 16, 2017 2:26:51 PM
Judy Lilley
Judy Lilley
Handicap: 20
Kent
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Steve is always right. He told a group of us in Portugal so it has to be true. 
#11 Posted : Wednesday, August 16, 2017 3:00:46 PM
Roger Ireland
Roger Ireland
Handicap: 9
essex
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Posts: 34
 Steve,  maybe everyone is happy with a higher h/c!!!!!  because there seems to be nobody who is jumping up and down about this,  as nobody is  making any comments. 
#12 Posted : Wednesday, August 16, 2017 4:24:55 PM
Judy Lilley
Judy Lilley
Handicap: 20
Kent
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 210
 I am confident there will be a lot of people who want to say something but make the decision not to. I do think Steve has made a great observation and suggestion. Remember it is simply that. As a club member and who puts all cards in - I know and appreciate the challenges. Let's embrace the forum for what it is. 



 
#13 Posted : Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:40:21 PM
Steve Rawlinson
Steve Rawlinson
Handicap: 12
North London
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 86
It's important to remember that stableford points are calculated against par for the course, whereas handicaps are calculated against SSS (or in qualifying comps, CSS) for the course.

If you play a course whose par is higher than its SSS, which is quite common on public courses, then shooting net par does not mean you're playing to your handicap.

For example, Epping is par 68 and SSS 63 (from memory).  If you score net 68 you'll get 36 points, but that still means you're 5 strokes off your handicap.

 
#14 Posted : Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:42:38 PM
Pete Mayo
Pete Mayo
Handicap: 22
London
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 10
I've been looking for a way to get down to 18 . . . .

TSG's is the only handicap I have and I would support changes that made it more accurate.
#15 Posted : Thursday, August 17, 2017 3:26:17 PM
Steve Rawlinson
Steve Rawlinson
Handicap: 12
North London
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 86
The TSG handicap calculation is exactly the same as the calculation a club would perform, using the same data (ie. your gross score, your playing handicap, and the course SSS/CSS).

The difference is that a club handicap adjustment can only be made after a score has been entered from a qualifying competition (eg a medal) which requires you to putt out (no gimmes) and hand in a score card signed by another member. 

The other difference is that the club may adjust the SSS for the competition conditions, eg. it might increase it by a stroke for poor weather.

My club handicap is 14, my TSG handicap is 12 and the reason for the difference is that public courses tend not to have very realistic SSS. Trent Park SSS is 68, South Herts is 72 but my scores at Trent Park are much more than 4 strokes better. 
#16 Posted : Thursday, August 17, 2017 5:16:43 PM
Gary Harvey
Gary Harvey
Handicap: 11
West of London
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Posts: 29
 Exactly why I wouldn't join a TSG event....my handicap on TSG is kept lower than my club one (manually if need be). TSG handicap should be lower than reality as gimmes etc. And lack of full rule play but instead we have the annoyed TSGer if 40+ isn't scored. For me it means pp

Club handicaps are different....stroke play qualifying rounds are simple to calculate....number of stokes (+3 over par max  per hole and only 3 of them) vrs the SSS

However stableford at a club qualifying competition would have an SSS or buffer zone stableford for the day normally dictated by a middle range from the field. Any decent pro at any course should be able to tell you the days SSS which 99% will be as per card. Weather etc. should and would change this though.
My old club was par 71 SSS 70 and 32 33 34  points was often the buffer. 35 then started the cuts. However off the yellows in summer one comp 42 was the first cut. And a white tee day in strong wind saw 31 as first cut. 

You can easily "adjust" your score based on the SSS if you really wanted. 




#17 Posted : Monday, September 11, 2017 8:49:32 PM
Alan Haywood
Alan Haywood
Handicap: 18
Essex
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Steve Rawlinson wrote:
The TSG handicap calculation is exactly the same as the calculation a club would perform, using the same data (ie. your gross score, your playing handicap, and the course SSS/CSS).

The difference is that a club handicap adjustment can only be made after a score has been entered from a qualifying competition (eg a medal) which requires you to putt out (no gimmes) and hand in a score card signed by another member. 

The other difference is that the club may adjust the SSS for the competition conditions, eg. it might increase it by a stroke for poor weather.

My club handicap is 14, my TSG handicap is 12 and the reason for the difference is that public courses tend not to have very realistic SSS. Trent Park SSS is 68, South Herts is 72 but my scores at Trent Park are much more than 4 strokes better. 

Your reasoning is sound Steve, the problem lies squarely with those who determine the SSS of a particular course, plus the fact that it is determined very infrequently. With regard to clubs adjusting the SSS for a comp, to account for poor conditions..this is very arbitary, and is always a bone of contention particularly for high handicappers.
Additionally, a club handicap can be achieved by entering as little as 3 cards a year, and this clearly produces a false representation of a players ability. TSGers are expected to enter ALL cards, and for those that do (and thats not ALL members) I contend that a fairer handicap is the result. We have all had the odd Round to die for, resultinbgt in a 3-4 stroke cut, which usually takes 10-20 more games to get back to reality, but thats the great thing about golf...swings & roundabouts, and having to deal with it.
#18 Posted : Monday, September 11, 2017 9:11:00 PM
Alan Haywood
Alan Haywood
Handicap: 18
Essex
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 131
Roger Ireland wrote:
 A ps,  just looked at my last 20 games ,  if i was cut scoring over 36 and going up scoring less than 34   my h/c now  would be  8.4


I can understand your reasonong Roger, but the fault of what you claim are false handicaps clearly lies with the SSS of any particular course. This is one reason why scores on courses less than ...what is it 5000 yards?, will  not be counted for the leaderboard. At one time, someone playing Epping was always winning the green towel...Risebridge has taken over as 50 points has become comnplace, as you can atest to,
There is nothing wrong with the system used by the TSG, I contend that a handicap nearer to a persons' abilities is the result of having to enter ALL cards, as opposed to 3 annually in a golf club. The problem lies with ridiculous SSS markers,Redbridge being a prime example clearly, and as Steve points out, this measure can also change depending upon conditions. The problem also lies with those who try to manipulate the system by not entering all score cards.
#19 Posted : Monday, September 18, 2017 5:15:50 AM
Mark Crane
Mark Crane
Handicap: 13
Kent
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 75
I just wanna play golf :-)
#20 Posted : Monday, September 18, 2017 7:44:24 AM
Judy Lilley
Judy Lilley
Handicap: 20
Kent
Pro Member

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 210
We all just wanna have fun ..........
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