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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Have Golf clubs stepped backwards decades during the pandemic ?
Decades ago Golf was dying. It was seen as an old man's game, for the elite only. However along came Tiger, and younger generations, and ordinary working people got interested. It took a long long time, but in the last few years it was looking good.
Hard working people could play when they had time, young people were encouraged.
All that good work seems to be brushed aside since the pandemic, and I blame...Golf Clubs. I know they'll say ' Ah but membership is up, and The Clubs have suffered during lockdowns '. Well yes membership maybe up. However, we ALL suffered during lockdown.
Lets say a youngish person not played much, or at all before, having watched the re-start of golf on TV, thinks ' I'll have a go at that. Not sure, but lets try '. Where do they start ?
Their local club ? Well it is winter, so not a lot of time, but should be ok. ' Sorry, I can only offer you after 1pm at a high price ' Well thats discouraging.
How about the internet, for example Golfnow. Whats available ? Playing OK courses that are very very muddy ( say High Elms ) £24 ( and thats one of the CHEAPEST ! ). Thats a lot for somebody only trying it out...in winter, who may not have time to be a member.
This sound very like Golf when I started last century, when GOLF WAS DYING !
At present things maybe ok, but when most people go back to full time work, and times are tight, this fledgling interest will go. Club's will suffer, and close.
Wooden drivers again anyone ?
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Steve 'The Powe...
Handicap: 21
Essex
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 288
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It has also been noticeable that a fair amount of members clubs have given priority to their members (is it a bad thing) thereby securing a fixed income during pandemic restrictions. The thing is that revenue from membership fees alone will not keep many clubs solvent. Most make up an annual shortfall by green fees, social events, and functions. A members only hidden agenda actually results in cash shortages which could see clubs being forced to close over time. So few remaining clubs will likely result in fewer tee time opportunities for the more social golfer. Prices will ultimately need to be inflated to try and recoup the shortfall, this may have the result of making golf less attractive to the newcomer.
Back to hickory shafts again methinks
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Thank you for your comment Steve. I agree there's nothing wrong with clubs prioritising their members, but not to the detriment of casual golfers who might become new members. As you say, these are the money bringers.
Bletchingley GC in Surrey is a good course, and was reasonably priced pre pandemic. As soon as lockdown lifted in July, their price for a casual round tripled ! I know they had lost a lot of money....but so did Joe Public.
My main complaint is the discouragement, just as Golfs future looked bright. I can afford and now have the time to join a club. Many won't have the time soon, and if the recession predicted comes, the money to join. They are the future, and could be lost forever.
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'JB' John Barbe...
Handicap: 15
Bedfordshire
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 275
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With todays experience I would have to agree, but it is not all clubs that should be castigated.
Pine Ridge in the past has been a regular haunt for a large number of players, but it appears that Crown Golf no longer care about anyone - IT IS ALL MONEY.
- Want to go as a guest, pay in advance - what if it rains you ask - well if the course is closed you'll get 'a voucher' otherwise, that'll be you tough luck
- Want a bacon butty before your round or a cuppa afterwards - tough they have one person in the hut and green staff working, that's it
- Green staff might be there, but it looks very much like the last time the bunkers were raked was BEFORE lockdown2
Will I go back, maybe, but not tramping across country for a game whilst there is a chance of inclement weather, so won't go back this side of spring.
Again, not are all acting this way, but Crown are at Pine Ridge - maybe it's the management, but I doubt it - can you wonder that they have shrunk as a group to just 7 courses.
ps.. just looking forward to my usual google 'what did you think of...'!!
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Ok. Name me a reasonable course, in London or the home counties, that are letting casual golfers on at a reasonable time and a reasonable price ? If you can I will play it. I am led to believe this maybe a London and Home counties thing. A friend in the West country tells me the prices are around the same as this time last year, and tee times are available. This time last year we rarely paid more than £22 on a weekday. Ok, we didn't play The London Club, or The Grove, but a REASONABLE course.
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Martin Brown
Handicap: 22
essex
Pro Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 41
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Toot Hill
£18.50/22
Touted as most picturesque course in Essex. We've been going with a gang of 16/24 virtually every Monday since first lockdown ended.
Then Top Meadow near Upminster, great course and £17.50 with breakfast. Give it a go Andrew.
Oh and Brentwood today only £22, bit wet in places but a great course. And Basildon too.
Sadly our other great courses of past years are asking silly money or at silly times to get a decent deal. S Essex and Warley Park to name two. £200 for a four-ball for a 10am Tee time where previously DJ wangled deals for around half that price.
I've also hated the idea of paying upfront, we haven't done that yet and I don't wish to start really.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Exactly. £50 each at Warley in December. Absolute rip off. I can't agree Top Meadow is that good, but Toot Hill is. Not played for a few months so don't know the condition, but it is good. So we have ONE that has the right attitude. Don't forget, put yourself in a newcomer to golfs position. We have played places like Toot Hill before, and know their quality. Others new to the game will go to Warley, pay £50, get muddy, treated like rubbish, AND NEVER PLAY AGAIN. Mid 2021 clubs will cry ' We can't carry on, we haven't enough income ' only themselves to blame. Short sightedness. e
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Jonathan Knowle...
Handicap: 4
Kent
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 19
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Maybe not to everyone's liking, but Pedham place is great in the winter and has decent green fees.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Now I know Pedham very well. It is a good course in the winter, but I just looked on Golfnow for a tee time there.....not a thing between now and Christmas ? Now, I don't believe EVERY teetime is taken for 2 weeks. So again, the new casual golfer is shut out.
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Jonathan Knowle...
Handicap: 4
Kent
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 19
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They were taking 2 for 1 vouchers after 11am a while ago, I do agree with you though. Ordinary courses are charging outrageous amounts to play goat tracks. Unfortunately I have been spoilt with cheap golf courses, I used to live in South Africa where the courses are really cheap and you can get some great deals. We should setup a forum meet there.
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Paul Houghton
Handicap: 16
Essex
Pro Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 136
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Interesting post Andrew. You need to have a discussion with the boss on this subject!
Golf is so entrenched in in its 'history' that it finds it too hard to change. Its institutional in its thinking and attitudes. There are newer clubs's on the block that are trying to break the mould. The Shire for instance, jeans and trainers welcome in the club house there. But this attitude has to start at the top. R&A and England Golf. Until they lighten up the attitudes and lets face it discrimination.....it will continue.
I think the whole golf industry in the UK, just can't help being washed against the rocks. They (the establishment) are just to slow to change or just don't want too?
I've been a member of a club & now centre for 12 years, the membership is less than half what it was even 5 years ago...but the management would rather go to the wall than change?? (Half of our course is now a housing estate!!!) (As will Toot Hill very soon)
The Golf Centre I am at tries hard to encorouge new membership, but offers little in the way of enticement. Golf is like a Rabbit in the headlights, too many clubs, terrible climate, to expensive and add the golf snobbery ta boot. I very much doubt that many clubs will even exist, in another decade. As you say the Tiger euphoria is long behind us. What happens next is very much up to England Golf!
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Thanks to everyone for these comments. I wondered if I was the only one with these misgivings after the lockdowns. Probably us established golfers will find ways around this, but I'm in my 60's now, but those under 30 just won't bother, if this is how their treated. There is plenty else to distract them. Listen up Golf Clubs. If you keep going with this policy, we old fogies will come. However, in 20yrs time...you'll be GONE.
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Gary Tonge
Handicap: 24
East Sussex
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
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You are definately not the only one Andy as evidenced by this forum. I also think there will be another challenge for golf if clubs carry on in this manner which is golf simulator technology.
You will note a number of golf driving ranges are installing Top Tracer technology and you can play a simulated round with friends at the driving range. Clearly this is not the same as playing on a golf course however with people being time poor and money being tight, this option could be attractive to some as you can play a virtual round in about an hour and you will probably spend £10 on balls, maybe slightly more. The time saved and the price of balls compared to the price of inflated green fees at £50 is considerable.
My only issue with Top tracer being installed at these ranges is I don't always want to use their technology, however whether I use the technology or not I have to pay an inflated price for a bucket of balls. My local driving range charges £4 for 50 balls, however Cranfield charge £9.50 for 60 balls because Top Tracer is installed. So this an area which may put off established golfers but might been seen as a cheap way for new golfers to play, however paradoxically some who love Top Tracer may play more on the range than on a course in the future.
Finally the lockdown has been an eye opener for many golfers in the lockdown, some who are fortunate enough to have the space and money have set up practice facilities at home, be it a driving net or home golf simulator like Skytrak and Mevo plus. Therefore this will be another area that will impact golf club revenues unless they wake up to these challenges.
Overall golf faces a tricky future. If golf clubs and driving ranges keep inflating prices people will either find other ways to play, or find another sport.
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Martin Brown
Handicap: 22
essex
Pro Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 41
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Yep whalebone lane £9.60 for a medium basket of balls, I done an immediate 180 and went to the new set up range at S Essex range with Top Tracer. A dam site cheaper. After my practice session I went for a coffee then short go on the putting green by the 1st and 10th Tees. In the space of 40 mins on a Wednesday lunchtime in mid September no one Teed off, it was eerily quiet. Not surprised by the green fee rate. I thought to myself I bet Toot Hill, Top Meadow, Risebridge or Basildon won't be like this.
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Daryl Fenton
Handicap: 12
essex
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 40
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on the flip side of this one club around here that seems to be making the right decisions is Stapleford Abbotts, not sure about the condition of it at the moment but since it was taken back from American golf along with south Essex they have done the opposite to south Essex and reduced their green fees to £20 and if you are willing to book a couple of days in advance only paying a £1 deposit decent tee times are available
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Martin Brown
Handicap: 22
essex
Pro Member
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 41
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Cheers Daryl, thanks for the heads up re SA golf club, always enjoyed playing there but sadly its not been on my radar this year. £20 green fee for a reasonable Tee off time and only a small deposit too, sounds good to me. However if its clearly unplayable due to rain but the course isn't officially closed then would they still take the remainder of the green fee from you I wonder.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Another update to my problem with Golf Clubs. Only a small thing compared to the rest above, but.....Played Princes in Kent yesterday. Great course, great condition, and a very good deal for a mini society of 16.
However, despite all that, one niggle. This was booked some time ago, and the price included breakfast. Since then Kent has gone into Tier 3, so cannot have the sit down breakfast in the clubhouse. Instead, Bacon bap and coffee out side.
The organiser asked for a discount due to much reduced breakfast......answer ? No !
Why not ? Not as though the breakfast was cooked and thrown in the bin. Kent has been Tier 3 since Lockdown was lifted. So they knew the situation.
A very small complaint considering it was a good deal anyway, but again, talking about Clubs DISCOURAGING players when they really should be ENCOURAGING players.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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I don't think all clubs have gone backwards...some.have got greedy but some have also offered great "academy" membership for people.new to the game...
I think that in the west of London (berks, Surrey type area) we have a good mix of pay and play (pine ridge, silver mere , hoebridge etc.), Good honest cheaper membership (Milford, royal Ascot, clandon) and decent members courses (Labourne, mill ride, windlesham, denham etc)
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Ok Gary ( wow, posting at 5:30am on Christmas Eve, hope you're heading to the course ). Give us some details. Remember, we have this mythical person, new to Golf not sure they want to take it up. So price, availability of a tee time when a full round can be played, a reasonable condition course (reasonable, it is December) and most especially, an encouraging welcoming atmosphere. So we want I'd say under £25, a tee time of midday at the latest and not up to their knees in mud. Where can we get that in West London ?
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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Night shifts!
I was a member at royal Ascot who were doing 3 months for £300 which included unlimited golf 7 days and 6 lessons....academy membership which was very popular....
There's a few courses that allow cheap golf in ok conditions and have some availability....Milford, stockley park, Sunbury (bit wet), pine ridge (bit busy!), Hoebridge, (which has a main course , short course and 9 hole course) silver mere (very wet), clandon, south Buckinghamshire, huntswood, wexham park....
Al these are under 30 quid and ok for newbies...
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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But I do agree, I can name an equal amount of courses that are fully booked or overpriced for the condition....
I just think there's a split now between members courses that are focussed on the member and the pay and play.....but both options are available round the A3/M4 corridor and surroundings.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Here we go again. Looking for a casual game this week. Called many clubs, nothing before 2pm in most ( 5 holes anyone ? ), Some nothing all week. Except Southern Valley at Gravesend. Not the best course around. Bit bland, no real clubhouse to speak of. They have 2 tee times. How much for a senior golfer ? £35 !!! That is yet another complete rip off.
As suggested, I am due to play Toot Hill next week. Great course, been told in very good condition. For a senior ... £18. How on earth can Southern Valley justify just under DOUBLE that price ?
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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And trying to get thru to clubs on the phone is getting very difficult. Almost it is likee they don't want casual golfers to come. Remember thee title of this chat ? Have Golf Clubs taken a Decades step backwards. This is how I was treated last century. l
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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So everyone is locked down....can't do hardly anything...but can play golf...and because of that golf has taken a decades step back?
Andrew, do you find yourself saying "I don't believe it!" regularly????
And I'll still find it hilarious that a) seniors expect a discount??? They take longer so should pay more if anything! b) you find £35 expensive when prices haven't really gone up massively in 15 years (maybe a tenner in that time) c) 35 is steep but 30 for membership on here is fine!????!!!
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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£35 for 4hrs golf so £30 is about 3hrs 50mins. As opposed to £30 Membership for 365 days or 8760 hrs. Still think there's a comparison ? Also despite me doing a mean Victor Meldrew impression when my golf ball doesn't bounce the right way, try going back to the beginning of this chat. Before the Pandemic, I said Golf was in a very GOOD place.Encouraginge people to comeee using the internet to make it easy to play, websites like TSG getting golfers together. The price isn't how the clubs have gone backwards. It's the DISCOURAGING of players. The price is just one of the things. Specifically, I suggest you go and play Southern Valley, and then tell me £35 is justified.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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I'm not sure what you think the solution is?
There's a lot of clubs who have overpriced green fees comparitively speaking...but then they also have members who pay very good money to play (not be unable to play due to "visitors")
I get what you're saying...I just think with the boredom and limited activity you can do, it's inevitable and I don't see what can be done
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'JB' John Barbe...
Handicap: 15
Bedfordshire
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 275
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OK, to put some perspective into all this, let's go back to 2000. That was when I started playing and when paying to play was looking at around £15 to £25 for a round. After a couple of years, I started playing with a 'fair weather' golfer from April to October and we played at courses that 'were less than £25' (North of Luton usually) and he would only go that high a couple of times a year.
Jump forward 17 years and my same golf buddy still has a £25 maximum, so we end up playing later and at lesser clubs.
I know that we can play relatively decent clubs like Toot Hill for £18 (oldies!) but that is because they made the decision to move to that model before the pandemic hit, and have made hay out of it. But courses like that are few and far between, many clubs are a corporate entity and must find profits for their shareholders, whereas Members clubs still to a large extent look down their noses at 'visitors' - both of these groups tend to charge more.
But how much do you think that they should be charging for visitors now? Based on an increase of around 2.5%, that £25 ceiling should now be up to £43+ (based on my original membership fee £700, to present £1200), which is now actually the Redbourn visitor rate.
And during the pandemic period, clubs have to make up their shortfall (generally golf fees don't pay for the upkeep) somehow, so fees increase. Yes us members do expect to get tee times over and above visitors. But we also understand that money has to be got from somewhere.
We are seeing year on year courses close, there are two main reasons for this - they have a low fee rate that does not sustain the business or a builder comes along with a bundle of money and hey presto another club gone. The third option is that a few are closing to return to farmland.
In essence I think I am saying, you have to live with higher prices - it is generally the way of 'entertainment' it is costing more year on year. Vote with your feet by playing 'better' courses (they will cost more).
As a 'normal' member at my club I would probably expect to play 40 times a year, anymore would be a bonus, that would give me a £30 round fee. But this ensures that the club will have 750 plus members to have a reasonable business model. Others can only dream of that many members so have to charge visitors more.
There, trust me to stir the pot a little! 
Happy New Year
jb
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Thank you John.
Again, remember, this ISN'T about todays price for a round. I started by saying when I started in the 1990's Golf was seen as a stuffy, old man, elitist club sport. The members looked down their noses at everybody. It was DYING. The younger general public were not interested.
Soon after though, with younger players on tour etc, it got better. Clubs started to realise they could grow. More members, more revenue, but they had to encourage this. They became friendly, open to all, dare I say it ? Fun.
Look at places associated with Golf, are they doing well ? Is the dark, little, fussy, critical shop owner thriving ? No. Are bright welcolming, helpful places like American Golf ? YES !
Then the reccession ( the previous one in 2008, not this one ) came, and clubs were hit like everybody. The savvy clubs adapted. The more income from societies, casual golfers, the better. So this time last year Golf was doing ok. Clubs were welcoming, they had to be to keep the developer wolves at bay.
But as Gary H says, now we have lockdown. Golf is one of the few things open. So do they encourage people to come, hoping for even more footfall when this madness is all over ? Some do. Others think ' We've got them over a barrel, lets charge them the earth, they'll come, theres nothing else to do '. However, hopefully lockdown is temporary. When there is more choice, what then ?
My current complaint is Southern Valley are charging £35 for a senior on a weekday. A year ago I could get on there for £15-£20.
Lets say a small area goes down to Tier 1, and the pub can open. However it's the only pub for a long way. The landlord who use to charge £4 for a pint, thinks ' I'm the only pub open, they've GOT to come here for a pint. I'll charge £15 for a pint ' When all the pubs open, where will YOU go to drink ? Even if he reduces the price back to £4 the same as all the others ?
Its the last century attitude that was KILLING clubs I don't like. I can afford the price, but I DON'T like being exploited !
( Shall we start a new Forum chat ' I don't like seniors getting in my way, they're too slow, charge them more so they don't come : A 'SOCIAL Golfer attitude ? ' - Discuss  )
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Jonathan Knowle...
Handicap: 4
Kent
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 19
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Its really supply and demand for golf tee times, I think since most golf clubs like every other business have had their revenue cut this year. They can set what price they see fit at the moment and if it's to high people won't play there, but judging by the lack of tee times at most clubs people are paying the green fees. I have no doubt that once the vaccine is rolled out and life returns to the new normal, there will be more tee times available and prices will come down again.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Yes Jonathan, but should we return to clubs that have exploited us ? Also remember isaid this seems to be a London and Home counties thing. I have a friend in Gloucestershire, who says this isn't happening there. Prices are the same, and availability is the same. Iknow it's more expensive to run a club around London, but that's no excuse to profiteer from people.
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Jonathan Knowle...
Handicap: 4
Kent
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 19
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It's always a southern thing.😀 In an ideal world of course you wouldn't go back to somewhere where you didn't get good value or felt ripped off. In reality people will moan at the time, and then when the prices drop they will say let's give it another go and see if it's better this time. I also think the matter is more complicated by the amount of people living in the southern areas, at the moment demand for tee times outweighs supply. Another issue for the future is a shift in working trends that more people work from home and less people go to the office which could lead to less tee times being available.
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Paul Houghton
Handicap: 16
Essex
Pro Member
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 136
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Very interesting debate. But there are many issues being raised, too many to address with one answer.
1/ Trying to solve ‘Nomadic golfer’ conundrum during the pandemic is not achievable, as clubs will profiteer to make up for the shortfall in revenue lost during lockdowns.
2/ Golf’s UK based long term business model is flawed, as we all know the game is not attractive to many younger people, due to many factors, not just cost.
3/ Land development is going to see more closure of golf venues, because Government are making it easier for developers to gain Planning initiatives, hence a lot more money to be made short term in housing.
4/For many decades Golf has had the wrong people in its governance organisations, steering the ship. It reacts to situations with showing very little or no leadership at all.
Golf clubs/Centres work in silos, they won’t share ideas or membership.
The whole industry is very short sighted and blinkered.
In summery, Golf probaly will need to suffer more finacial pain, before it changes. Football had many issues before the advent of the Premier League. Golf relies too much on a few Majors and the Ryder Cup, is that enough to promote the sport?
Until golf sees the pay and play/member golfer in a different light, we will be having this ongoing debate again and again.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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I think Paul has it spot on. We'll just end this lengthy chat with a warning, then no more. Clubs, Governing body's etc take note. We willl not be here forever. If you don't change your attitude, nor will you.l
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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But they will be....and so will we
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Hi all, new member here. Sorry to bump this thread but glad it's here as it's something I have been thinking about recently.
Always been a social/fair weather golfer based down in Sussex. Mum and my late dad were long term members at Pyecombe but because I played football in those days full week membership was never a financially viable option, and even when I stopped playing football I couldn't justify paying for a years membership when I only played weekends March/April to September! Liked playing different courses as well as did other golfing buddies so that's always been our way. Several years ago I had a fabulous 241 book but as time went on fewer clubs accepted the book and many a course I haven't played in years because I didn't want to pay £40-£50 for a round when they stopped accepting the book. Not even sure if 241 vouchers are worth it now as so few courses seem to accept them.
Teeofftimes, now Golf Now became our source of deals but even pre pandemic these were getting less and less. The Bletchingley example above is absoloutely correct with the way their green fees jumped sky high and last summer was the first we haven't played there. Around May/June 2020 Golf Now was still producing some decent deals. I don't mind paying £25 to play Surrey National for instance but by July their best prices were £50. Their website now shows lowest price before 3pm for visitors is £50 Mon-Thu with £70 quoted for weekends before 3 and even a twilight is £40. I don't earn a lot so that's one course I won't be playing this year! Even council courses are charging £30 whereas two years ago £15 would have been expensive and a "hot deal" on Golf Now is now around the £30 mark at it's lowest for an 18 hole course. Reigate Hill was a regular haunt as were Chartham Park and Gatton Manor but now all are out of our price range
A good friend is a member of a local club and as his guest we pay £25 up from £20 two years ago. However it might be going up to £30 and the club also wants to limit guests to a maximum of 6 appearances per year which I find strange especially when the course is quiet. Because of prices being sky high at other courses he now rarely jopins us elsewhere because why would he pay £30-£40 at another course when he is already a member somewhere so that's a mate we rarely see now because of course prices and his own clubs rules.
Clubs have also closed as mentioned above. Hassocks used to have great deals, Rusper started great but ended up expensive, Waterhall was cheap and decent and a Club with three nine hole courses on the way to Guildford whose name I forget was a good place, but all have now gone. East Sussex National used to do a great deal for a ttwo course all dayer with buggies. 12-16 of us played at least once a year for anything between £85-£95 each for the day. Last time I got a quote it was £135, needless to say none of us have played there for 3 years.
I understand that prices may go up at times but to charge £40 for a twilight is silly IMO. There are places who don't want visitors and charge high to put people off but the bread and butter/average courses going up to £30/£40 when just over a year ago they were £20 is a bit steep.
In a nutsell I have no idea where I will play this year because I certainly can't afford spending £200 odd on golf a month!
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Jonathan Knowle...
Handicap: 4
Kent
Joined: Jul 2019
Posts: 19
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If you don't mind playing council courses, mytime active golf 5 day memberships are £73 a month, and that gives you access to 13 different courses. That's pretty decent value with no joining fee.
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'JB' John Barbe...
Handicap: 15
Bedfordshire
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 275
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I have a second membership at Batchwood - part of 1Life group - and it is just £66 and for us old farts, £35 per month. My main membership is at Redbourn and that over the past year was £100 pm and included additional rounds at 7 other clubs (12 in total) plus two rounds a month at Aldwickbury and a couple of rounds each year at Burhill (suspended at present). So if you look carefully, there are a lot of deals about.
Be interesting to see what fees will rise to this year!
jb
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Funnily enough we played Waterhall and Hollingbury a lot via MyTimeActive but Waterhall closed and Hollingbury is now run by the members again and there aren't any MyTime courses in my area. It's going to be tricky. Golf Now for instance for Tuesday March 30th - Surrey National £50, Woldingham £100 between 11 and 1, £50 after that, Westerham £58 and that's not even weekend rates!
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Hi Chris B. I started this discussion back in December. Your history of playing, including the courses mentioned seems to match mine. Just to add as the next re-opening looms. Surrey National, and local The Woldingham have some tee times on Golfnow, not at £50....but at £100 per person !!! Now this is a weekday, although it is at a very popular time. So Surrey National 2019 I could get on for around £20. 2021 up to £100 ?! An increase of 500%. Whats the rate of inflation at present ?
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Hi Andrew, Yep you are absolutely right it's quite a staggering increase. We played North Downs for £20 in September I think, now the cheapest round on their website is £30 midweek or bizarrely £15 for 7 holes! Cheapest I have found so far is £20 at Tilgate Forest. So many good courses such as those you mentioned and places like Nizels or Ashdown where you could get good deals are now pricing out the visitor. Love to know who would pay £100 for a round at Woldingham! I can understand that they have lost money badly but I'm not sure pricing out the casual golfer is the way to go. Plus as you said earlier in the thread youngsters and newcomers. Are they going to shell out on clubs, trolleys, balls etc and then £100 for a round? Problem is if you stop visitors that's potential next generation members who aren't having a look.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Exactly as I put forward before. I was surprised by the supporters of my ideas, but also by those who thought what the clubs were doing was ok ? I myself am trying to join a local club, partly because of this situation. However I have got to a life position that being a member may suit me. For a long long time, it didn't. Then this situation may have caused me to give up playing. Sad. If you find any half decent deals to play soon, contact me, we can meet up and winge round a course together 😉
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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So true Andrew, For instance I can't afford it, but if I could I could join the Club one of my mates is a member at, but if my other two mates wanted to play different courses I would lose the opportunity to play with them! I wouldn't be adverse to say a county wide summer membership scheme that allows you to play certain courses in your area for say members green fee prices but obviously you wouldn't be able to play in Competitions etc. I know they have County Cards but as far as I know that's for members already at a club and the discounts aren't great even with that.
Absolutely I'll keep you up to speed. Best offer I have found so far is Tilgate Forest at £20 although Lingfield at £22 during the week isn't bad. Quite often we only have three of us, which is an awkward number so you would be more than welcome to join us. We are in West Sussex so not sure how far you are from there? We tend to go as far West as Goodwood, East as Eastbourne, South Coast and Woldingham, Surrey National and North Downs North wise.
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Sorry Andrew only just noticed your message and as I'm a basic member I couldn't reply.
Thanks Ian but I just couldn't afford a golf club membership, or sadly Hill Barns green fee prices. £37-£42 is a bit steep. Even Horton Park is £40 on The Millennium Course. Hence being the casual golfer who sadly looks like he won't be playing much this year looking at the prices on teeofftimes. Feel for them on there as they can hardly state they are a discount site these days. £70 to play Surrey National is crazy!
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'JB' John Barbe...
Handicap: 15
Bedfordshire
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 275
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Must say that this side of the Thames, it appears that the courses are charging more, but not a fortune more, AND there are courses that charge a lower rate. Even The Grove is doing an afternoon deal for £99 - not cheap, but not as bad as in previous years. There will be courses all around the UK charging higher rates, but there are still a lot charging reasonable rates - if you want a game, look for the cheaper courses.
I'd also point out that the anticipated 'Big Rush' back to the golf course doesn't look as big as expected - there are available tee times all over, just means you have to change your playing habits a little in the short term.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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Although, as I said before, I don't agree that most clubs (in West of London area) have changed much or ripped people off / discouraged new golfers...I do laugh still.at clubs that think it's 1960.
£2000 per year I don't mind but £1000+ joining fees when who knows if another lockdown happens or what...and interview process (which takes 4 weeks) is ridiculous. On average, I reckon a member of a club would easily give £4000 to a club (fees, comps, pro shop buys, bar, food etc...)
Are joining fees necessary now? The newer golfer wants to be a member but not tied in (stuck) at a club for 10 years +
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'JB' John Barbe...
Handicap: 15
Bedfordshire
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 275
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Agreed Gary. I must say that Redbourn have installed a joining fee, but £100 is not so bad. Have heard about these stupid retrograde huge fees and stupid interviews etc... If I was in the market to join another club, and the question of a fee arose, I'd probably give them a miss, and should they tell me that they were interviewing me for membership I would not be polite. I am the one bringing the money, THEY are not paying me, so jog on I'd look elsewhere.
Nothing like taking it back to the dark ages! Next they will expect women to only play when the menfolk deem it allowable....and kids playing golf, they'll ban that next. These same clubs will start thinking they can enforce the blazer and tie malarkey next. They are all trying to elevate themselves way above THEIR station..
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Hope you don't mind me posting this here but it may be of interest. Prices around my way are still mostly high at many clubs and I was told by a good friend of mine that when guests are allowed back at his club a members guest fee at a weekend this year is £35 whereas last year it was £25. This is at any time as far as I know so no twilight prices either. £35 might not sound a lot but when you are on a low wage it's obviously high compared with a lesser club that charges £20. It's grass, a few hills and slopes and 18 holes in the ground is the way I look at it maybe wrongly of course!
I looked online and came across Golf England and on their website it states "England Golf is the governing body for amateur golf in England. We are dedicated to growing the game of golf and our work benefits around 1,800 golf clubs and 637,000 players"
So I thought I would email them to hear their thoughts on the current situation price wise at clubs. Their reply certainly intrigued me as if you look at the golf now website and many clubs booking systems it certainly doesn't suggest they are fully booked at all.
Good Morning,
Many thanks for your email and apologies for not responding to you sooner.
Thank you for passing on your concerns in regards to the green pricing at some of the golf clubs in your local area.
As I am sure you are aware, golf has seen a bit of a resurgence in popularity over the last 12 months which has increased demand for tee times in most parts of the country. Coinciding with this, golf clubs have perhaps recognised that they can increase their prices to capitalise, taking the same approach that many other organisations do when demand starts to meet or is greater than supply.
If a club is owned by it’s membership, then understandably their focus is on selling the benefits of becoming a member and therefore they set their pricing structure accordingly to make this a more appealing offer. I agree that clubs need to find a balance between income from membership and green fees, I just think at the moment that because demand is so high and membership numbers are generally growing, that clubs aren’t necessarily seeing the need to offer deals or lower prices as the course is generally full and they are finding people to pay the prices they are charging.
When it comes to clubs, our role is to ensure that they are as well run and sustainable as they can possibly be. Ultimately each club is it’s own business and will set prices that they feel are the best for them, and we are only able to influence if a club asks for support in that particular area.
Participation and membership in golf is the highest it has been for a number of years and if/when the market changes and demand drops off, I am sure that changes to pricing will then follow.
Thanks again for your email.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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Seems a fair answer....
I don't have an issue with the pricing personally...supply and demand as stated before...
I also don't want to see jeans and t shirt on the course or speakers....but I do think some members clubs need to move with the times to attract a younger member....
A members club charging 35 Vs 25 is fair to me...most won't allow guests still...
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'JB' John Barbe...
Handicap: 15
Bedfordshire
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 275
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There is a recurring theme here regarding golf fees. I have to go back to what I said earlier in the thread, that people are still expecting to pay pre 2010 prices. Back then a decent club could be charging £25 to £35 and were many times more than some of my playing partners would pay more than a couple of times a year. And putting this in perspective membership fees for the same courses were around the £600+ mark.
Move forward 10+ years and we all look for a 'deal' and some object to paying the going rate. My membership fee I am told is due to rise to £1300 pa and when you pay it as someone who only plays perhaps 40 rounds a year, £33 a round is pretty reasonable when you would have had to pay £44 weekend rate AND not be allowed on before midday. Toot Hill has decided to grab some extra cash (they think!) and jack their prices to £30 weekdays with no concessions (it may be worth £30, but NOT weekdays).
There are some that are trying their luck and increasing prices, but if you do not think they are worth it, go elsewhere, but don't expect the 'cream' courses for 'milk' prices. There are courses around that do not charge the earth, they may not be your first choice, but what is more important, playing a reasonable course and getting a game in or only playing once in a blue moon because the price of your premium choice is too high? If someone in my immediate area was looking for golf on a budget, I would send them to Batchwood in St Albans - not the best, but a lot better that a few (more expensive) courses I've played - it's £24 a round and membership is £66 a month.
What everyone needs to remember is that you get what you pay for....
Want a good quality round of golf - expect to pay £35 plus
Want a premium round of golf - expect to pay upwards of £70
Want a cheap and cheerful round - expect to pay from £20
......But if you are looking for good quality for cheap rates, those days have never really been around - and think yourself well off, a thread I have seen elsewhere has municipals in the States charging $100 plus for a round, yes COUNCIL style courses upwards of $100.
And yes Gary H, you are spot on, it's all about supply and demand - and those that overcharge eventually have to drop their prices, because not enough play and the quality drops.
jb
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Maybe where we are seeing the difference then is the "discount" sites can't do it anymore. I used to use a 241 book years ago but so many clubs came off it wasn't worth it. Last few years we have been using teeofftimes, now golf now, but each year the "deals" get less to the extent that I looked today and the "deals" at many a club are the same price as the clubs own website. For sure you expect East Sussex National for instance to be a rare treat, but Surrey National for instance, whereas up to June last year you could easily find a slot on a weekend for £25, now it's £50 and if you want the 2.08pm slot this Saturday on golfnow it's £100. That's a big jump. Even our local golf centre which is very very basic is charging £25 this year, nine holes at £15.
See what you are saying John about prices in say 2010 till now, but how far do clubs go before it gets too expensive to play for many? Even Hollingbury where we had the funniest round ever after last lockdown due to sun bathers being on fairways and greens, have jumped up from £20 to £28 and that's a basic ok'ish cheap and cheerful place. Seaford Head which I adore and we usually paid £20 is now £33 at weekends,. Strangely you can now play the Woosnam Course at Dale Hill, The Devonshire at Royal Eastbourne or Pyecombe cheaper this year than you can Surrey National or Woldingham! Will certainly be interesting to see if it continues throughout the summer.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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Well those sites sold the unused tee times or unpopular ones like sunday afternoon or early Tuesday...
They're isn't such a thing currently as golf has exploded
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'JB' John Barbe...
Handicap: 15
Bedfordshire
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 275
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Yep, there we go, supply and demand. If the 'good courses' are charging through the roof, play the less popular - and expect to pay around £25 to £35. Prices will dip again, but £25 is going to be a fair low figure, and if they are all better courses, you'll have to pay 'better rates'.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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What I don't understand is people acceptance of SOME of this. Scroll back through the pages of this post, and you'll find praise for Toot Hill at Ongar in Essex. A very good course that was bucking the trend last year as we came out of lockdown, not massively hiking the price to make money. However, they have now announced, as of May 1st, price rise for seniors from £20 to £35 ( this is weekday, no senior discount anymore, so the price for all ). You may think £35 is acceptable, but that is a 75% increase !!! If your council tax went up 75% you'd hit the roof, and scream blue murder at your MP ! Most of the group I spoke to there on Monday said it was unacceptable and, at last, THEY WONT COME ! This is what the club's seem to be ignoring. Again, go back over these comments. When the paying players dry up, and the club has finance problems, THEN they may realise they went a step to far. However then it'll be too late.
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Gary Tonge
Handicap: 24
East Sussex
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
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Agreed Andy, and I certainly won't be paying inflated prices. I think the best thing players can do is to avoid these courses until they come to their senses. I think most players won't mind paying an extra £5 for a green fee due to COVID, however these types of price hikes are unacceptable and will put most golfers off playing due to cost.
I've seen clubs who have tried to charge inflated prices recently, who have subsequently had to drop their prices as they are not shifting their t times.
Why do I know this? Because clubs are sending emails to people on their mailing list prior to the weekend saying they have spare T's.
One local course I know had barely filled their afternoon t times on a Saturday when I received one of these mails on a Friday. Strangely their green fees have been revised downwards recently. I believe very few people are prepared to pay inflated prices.
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Gary Tonge
Handicap: 24
East Sussex
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
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Bargain of the week email from the London Club
Green fees Mon Thu £130, Fri-Sun £150
Twighlight from 3pm Mon - Thu £85, Fri-Sun £95
Im sure prior to COVID you could get a round for £70 off peak Mon -Thu
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Thank you Gary. Of course we expect an increase. However it's the RATE of these increases. Again, the club's will moan 'Oh Covid and lockdown has hurt us'. Well, find somebody it hasn't hurt ! Everybody has suffered in some way, but we don't all help ourselves, by ripping off others !
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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I have to agree. I lost my job through Covid as have many, which is why paying over the odds for golf isn't an option for me. Re council tax people are spitting blood in my area with this years increase, let alone as you say a 75% one!
Re the discount sites in the past only offering unsociable tee times I would have to politely disagree. Early last summer we were playing Horsham, Surrey National, Rookwood, Lingfield, Seaford Head anytime at a weekend after 1pm or 2pm and all for between £15 and £25 which is more than acceptable. Play this Saturday and in order they are charging £33, £100/£50, £28, £30, £33.
As I said above even my mate who is a member at a good local course is baffled because weekend guests rates are now £35 up from £25 and he says the course is quiet on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. I'd understand it if the courses wwere fully booked but if you look on golfnow there a plenty of afternoon times available at a price.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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Weekend afternoon would be less busy times pre covid
As a member, if I was paying £1800+ per year and then £25 rates came in I'd be livid....makes no sense me being a member at that rate unless I played 72 times per year (to break even!)
I'm not sure what you're expecting the courses to do? Make the rates cheaper so the course is rammed which annoys the members who then leave?
Pay and play courses are the way to go and know that they will be rammed and a bit more expensive...and the decent courses will be way high to detract people and protect their members.
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Joined: Mar 2021
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"Weekend afternoon would be less busy pre covid" Exactly which still seems to be the case so why price out the occasional golfer if the course is quiet?
think there has to be a balance which I think a lot of places got right pre covid. From what I can gather (may be wrong) a lot of members go out morning so it's perfectly understandable for either visitors green fee prices to be high in the morning or visitors not to be allowed on before a certain time. We as a group are always happy to play after 1/2pm but if a course was £20/£25 after 1 or 2pm prior to Covid then a jump to £35 or higher in the afternoon is quite extreme, especially the basic pay as you play type courses who seem to be charging the same or similar now as members courses.
I never became a member anywhere because I used to play football when I was younger most Saturday's and Sunday's bar the summer months. Now, as it was then as far as I know very few, if any clubs offer merely summer memberships for either fair weather golfers, like myself, or those who do other things, like I did when I was younger, so paying a full years membership fee when you only play from say May to September is pointless. Where my friend is a member it's £1500 a year plus a £500 entry fee. £2000 for me playing once a week for 24 weeks would be about £83 quid a round, so people like myself have no option but to be social golfers and play where we can, especially when we just play as friends and have no interest in playing in competitions and such.
From what I can tell to join a club is probably cheaper it was in the 70's/80's. Or at least some clubs may have done away with joining fees, I don't know. I know that when my late dad and mum joined Pyecombe back in the early 80's I'm sure it was a £4000 joining fee for the pair then £2000 a year membership each. Now a 7 day membership there is £500 joining fee and £1356 per year plus affiliation fees so certainly cheaper than the 80's and yet visitor prices are getting higher! I just think that pricing out the visitor means that they will look elsewhere and that's a potential member from time to time they are missing out on. It also seems self defeatist if the high prices mean the course is quiet on weekend afternoons. Just my opinion, it's a good discussion.
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Brigitte Lockwo...
Handicap: 30
Middlesex
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 574
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Hi Chris,
A lot of Golf clubs /golfvenues now offer a Flexible membership where you choose your level of cover, your times and pay accordingly.
Some of these Clubs have affiliated Courses where you can use your said Flexible memberdhip , so you are not stuck at the same course all the time .
You also get some similar rights as a Full member , ie. discount on Bar card, food , Proshop and Guest Fees.
Worth looking at Flexible , I don't think anyone on this Forum has mentioned it....
So keep an open mind and ignore the courses or Clubs who are too dear for you. I am sure you will find something suitable for your lifestyle & budget.
Have you joined any if the TSG posted games? There are some very good games in your budget range . Keep looking .
Enjoy the fairways when you finally get what you are looking for .
Bedt regards
Beigitte
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Thanks Brigitte. Problem is for me anyway is I just couldn't even afford flexible membership. Paying up front for anything is just not an option financially right now. Did get a game in last minute yesterday at Lindfield for £20 and that's absolutely fine, so a couple of us are going to try and do a few twilights there. Was nice in the sun but got a tad chilly late on! Am also keeping an eye on the posted games that you mention, thank you.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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I don't really know what the ideal answer you want is?
Pay and play courses are there...just a tad more expensive than before (supply and demand)
Members courses aren't now on tee times websites etc as the membership has increased so the availablity isn't there...I get some private clubs may have quiet spells but as a member, you don't want them rammed 24/7....course maintenance still needs to be done, extra traffic deteriorates the condition....and a member doesn't want to have to miss out on a last minute wish to play as the course is full....
I think there's ample cheap pay and play courses out there....the ones hiking the prices are probably the ones that actually don't want nomad golfers there...?
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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Gary, I totally agree with your last sentence. However not with the one before. There are not 'ample' cheap pay and play courses.
There were over a year ago. Because clubs had realised there was money in filling the quiet slots with that. It was a bread winner. However some ( I agree not all ) clubs have gone against that idea. This dialogue has asked 'Why' ? Are they so flush with money now they can ignore the nomad golfer, price them out ? If so fine. Just don't moan in another years time that they are on the verge of going out of business. It's the new generation of golfers who are being shunned. The cheap pay and play encouraged them. This style does not.
I said before, I'm an established golfer. I will find ways to play. Newcomers won't. I won't be here in 25 years time, if the club's ignore the next generation...They won't be here either.
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Joined: Mar 2021
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I have to agree Andrew. Funnily enough I watched on You Tube an interview with Gary Player which is obviously a few years old. Even then he was bemoaning the price of golf which put newcomers off, which in turn means not many youngsters play unless they or their parents could afford it, which again in turn means the future of golf at the top level has less players to choose from. Tennis is similar price wise and has been for years with restrictions on when youngsters can play at certain places and bar Andy Murray we haven't produced a tennis player for years. Who is coming up behind Justin Rose as an English hope in golf for instance?
I spoke to one of my golfing buddies this morning. With him money is no issue and he will happily pay for a round, but even he baulked at paying £50 let alone £100 at Surrey National where there are plenty of tee times available this afternoon if you want to play £50 but The Woosnam at Dale Hill is up for £30 at the same time. That's what I find interesting, the expensive clubs are at the same price as per usual, so where you may play a Surrey National usually because it's cheaper if it's the same price or more expensive than one of the iconic courses then you may as well play the iconic course.
I agree as well that there aren't ample cheap pay as you play. Rookwood and Hollingbury that I would usually class as that are charging £28. Not much for a top course but they aren't top courses. Sadly other great places to play on a deal like Waterhall, Hassocks and The Kingfisher at Mannings Heath have either closed for building developments or go down to a basic 9 hole like The Kingfisher has done. Courses are closing big time down here so that suggests golf isn't doing quite as well as my email from Golf England suggested. As you say if the nomad golfer turns their back on the members courses where are the next lot of members coming from?
Re Members courses not being on golfnow for instance therre are still tee times for Bletchingley, Surrey National, Woldingham, North Downs, Kingswood, Westerham, Selsden, Dale Hill etc but all at a pretty premium. Interestingly Twilight rates seem to have been abandoned this year.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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I've already listed plenty round here...M3 A3 M4 area west of London
The Nomad golfer shouldn't get rights to play a members course without paying at least 20% more than a members guest rate in my view....if the club wants them on there at all!
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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That's fair enough Gary, all about opinion... Probably depends on the area as well but we seem to be losing courses here near the South coast. Maybe the increase is down to the increase in members guest rates, as I say a friends club has increased guest rates from £20 in 2019, to £25 in 2020 to £35 this year. Course is dead Saturday and Sunday afternoons, his words.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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Just need to appreciate the difference between a private member's club and a pay and play...say Kingswood vrs bletchingly....Kingswood will not want to fill all the tee times (as they exist for members who want flexibility around tee availability and course maintenance) and bletchingly want pay and play but can charge a bit more at the mo due to demand....the bletchingly type clubs will soon drop rates when this crest breaks
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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That's fair enough Gary. Never played Kingswood actually, always wondered what it's like. My main point was that the Bletchingley type clubs have plenty of tee times for weekend afternoons on golfnow for instance, plenty. Couple of years ago you would have had to book places like that and Surrey National at £25 ish very early in the week to get a tee time at a weekend and some weekends there were just greyed out, so fully booked. At the moment you can book one easily on the day for that Saturday or Sunday afternoon if you wish to pay the price, and at the end of the day there are still tee times available. That may of course change as the weather gets warmer. Will be interesting to see which way it goes.
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Paddy O
Handicap: 19
West Sussex
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 10
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Chris B, I think you're way off teh mark tbh. It's not just a field with some hills with holes stuck in them. The employees of these golf clubs are experts, that have trained and then had years of experience.
Also, you're getting up to 4 hours 'entertainment' or 'excercise' for your money.
5-a-side football is about £7 a player for 40mins. 11 a-side is about a tenner for an hour and a half. The cinema is about £15 for an our and a half.
Your expectations are off and your respect for the staff that work at courses is off. Most of these members of staff have been sat at home for the best part of a year waiting until they can earn some money again. Clubs have had to keep minimal grounds staff on just to keep the courses in nick. With no income at all.
If you just want to hit balls into a hole cheaply, go to a pitch and putt. If you just want to hit balls hard go to a driving range. If you want to play on a course, pay the price. If you can't afford it, offer your services as a marshall or some other volunteer.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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What about the casual golfers who can't afford to pay these prices.....Because they also have been sat at home for a best part of a year waiting to earn some money again ? As they now maybe able to work again, haven't the time to be a Marshall ? Shall we just let them fall away ? That is until the club's thinks ' Why has our footfall gone down ? Where are the money bringing casual golfers ? '
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Paddy O Entitled to your opinion but you have totally misunderstood me. I haven't disrespected the employees that work hard at a golf course at all. When I said grass, a few hills and slopes and some holes in the ground I was referring to what a golf course is, not the effort and work that's put into it to create the different quality by the greenkeepers. It's like saying a football pitch is a bit of grass with two goals at either end, which again is what it is, but obviously you get different quality of pitches. My point was you are paying at some places ££££ extra this year for exactly the same product and quality that you did last year or two years ago in many cases but I certainly am not criticising those who work at the clubs.
I played at Lindfield the other evening. A small increase this year up from £15 to £20 for 18 holes and the guy said if we didn't get round due to light then let him know next time and he would discount the round. We did get round, just, but what wonderful service and we have found our twilight course for the season now as my friend is no longer a points member at Haywards Heath. That's an acceptable increase IMO.
I haven't got an issue with golf clubs increasing prices if they wish, that's their right. I just find it odd how "some" clubs can jump prices up from £25 to £35 or £50 in the blink of an eye and yet the other courses who usually charge £35-£50 for instance stay the same price. I just can't see the logic of a mid range course now charging £50 but a nearby high range course still charging the £35 to £40 they did two years ago. Then you look and see there are plenty of tee times available in the afternoon for the mid range course. Whereas I would quite happily pay £25 for that mid range course last year I might as well pay for the higher range course this year as it's actually cheapper. It doesn't make much sense to me.
You are right about football and cinema but the rise in prices at some golf clubs are akin to a football club now putting it's weekly subs up from £10 to £20-£25 per game or the cinema putting prices up from £15 to £30. They would lose those who could not afford it.
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Paddy O
Handicap: 19
West Sussex
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 10
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@andrew - I don't think casual golfers looking for a cheap round should be any club's priority. Creating a sustainable, enviromentally sound business model that ensure their club doesn't fall to the wayside should be their priority. Letting hundreds of random people play without commitment to the club each day for £20 is not a sustainable business model. What happens if they have to shut down again? Or some kids run across the greens with a motorbike? You just leave and play somewhere else. You should pay a premium for that.
As i said, i think you're undervaluing the amount of work that it takes to run a golf club if you're just looking for cheap. Yes, there needs to be value - but from the comments above 'it's just a field with some holes in it' - It's not value that you're looking for. It's cheap. And a golf club is a very expensive business to run to give it away for cheap. If you don't see the value in something, you're not forced to pay the price. There are cheap ways to swing a club at a ball without playing a round of golf. 9 holes, pitch and putt, rushing around in the dark or the range are all cheap ways to play, but from the conversation above that's not what is being asked for. What's being asked for is a certain amount of £ worth of golf for less, for no other reason that you don't see it as being worth saving up/sacrificing time to do it.
Chris B - it seems to me that you you value a round of Golf less than a lot of other people do. And that 'lot of other people' are enough to prop up the golf economy without you.
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Paddy O - Again you have totally misunderstood me. Not sure how you come the conclusion that I value a round of golf less than others, which is not true at all. All I am saying is surely people should be entitled to query why some clubs feel the best way forward is to charge double the price for a gree fee within 12 months. I'm sure members wouldn't be over chuffed if memberships doubled in 12 months to stay in line with gree fee prices. I wasn't suggesting same price or cheaper, just querying such a high jump that some clubs have done.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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Paddy is right in the sense that the golf clubs focus should be on the member (not for pay and play courses but then I don't see them hiking prices up as suggested, they just don't have the really cheap rates going as the footfall is higher...much higher)
And the remark about membership fees rising is incorrect...the amount of members rising is the issue...the clubs attracted members as a member likes the freedom to play at "any" time (with in reason) and have loads of comps and roll ups etc...if the quieter times at these courses are filled with cheap rate casual golfers then that detracts the draw of a member...
And there are still plenty of pay and play courses.
The argument about "when the popularity dries up" is also flawed I reckon as the membership increases...6 courses I was looking at to join have now closed for new members....that shows the long term security for those courses.
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Gary, Paddy is indeed right that the focus at a golf club should be the member. I'm not denying that and nor would I say different. If clubs were booked solid with the price rises then fine, good luck to them, no issue with that at all. But in some cases a quick glance at club visitor booking systems shows that is far from the case "at some clubs". A club where a good friend is a member said that members guests fees were up this year from £25 to £35 midweek and higher at the weekend and yet in his words the course is dead in afternoons. Now that's a member questioning it. Many have decided not to have twilight offers this year. Again fair enough but it just seems a bit bizarre if the course is empty. I'm not throwing every club in the same basket. I don't expect to play East Sussex National for anything less than what they quote and I'd happily pay the going rate at Royal Eastbourne and the like. As said before many times my only confusion is clubs that had decent rates pre pandemic have doubled prices and yet they clearly aren't that busy in the afternoons.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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Because they don't want to be full 24/7
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'JB' John Barbe...
Handicap: 15
Bedfordshire
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 275
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Let me just say that a course that has closed its intake of members has in fact achieved its business plan p&l for the year. Many clubs have closed the intake, and sorry to those that would like to play there on a pay and play basis will have to pay more. The members of those courses have no sympathy for those that would like to turn up and play at a cheap rate, they want the chance to turn up and play at any time.
That might not be how the nomadic golfer sees it, but that is the view of a member. If you want pay and play, you are now in the hands of some rather unscrupulous owners. But not all are like it. And mostly the members clubs that charge higher rates are also the better courses. Sorry to say, but that is why they can and should charge a premium, otherwise why should we members pass over a largish chunk of cash?
The other side of the equation is with playing at Toot Hill this coming Monday - up goes the price in my case by 50%, there goes their take from me until they learn the error of their ways.. And should they continue with the price, there are other courses with honest fees.
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'JB' John Barbe...
Handicap: 15
Bedfordshire
Pro Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 275
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Just like to point out that the price to sit and watch a live game of football at a premier league match in 2019 ran from Bournemouth @ £36 through to Arsenal @ £97.
I know it's not the same, but puts things in a little more perspective when you understand that those that buy season tickets (members) pay on average a lot less than that for their games. This is exactly the same as members golf clubs.
jb
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Well put John, that's a fair assesment.
Surprised that Bournemouth haven't charged more considering Jack Wilshire's wages! Mind you my lot are probably still paying half of them! ;-)
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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If I'm right in understanding what your saying John, you maybe living in the past, as was I with regard to Football season tickets. My son is on the waiting list for a season ticket at Arsenal. ( I know, I know, where did we go wrong as parents ) The cost these days means, if you miss one or two home games, you would be better off buying on the day. Season tickets are NOT a huge saving anymore ( definitely used to be when I had one in the 70's ). Nowadays, a season ticket is more about a guaranteed seat, rather than a saving.
So does this mean there will be a European Super League of us Golfers ? Will YOU be invited in ? 😊
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Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 26
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Football tends to have different bands and categories of membership as well. At West Ham most expensive is £1200 and cheapest is £320. Same with prices per game. Most expensive seat is £80 and cheapest is £30. If you pay £20 to be a claret member it's between £25 and £75 for the fan who can't get to 38 games.
That's all I am saying about golf, that the lesser courses should in theory work out cheaper than than the better courses, but at the moment in "some" areas and with "some" clubs that's not the case.
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Andrew J King
Handicap: 12
Kent
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 26
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If anybody is ( still ) interested, have a look on YouTube. There's a Golf Pro who puts a lot of videos up called James Robinson Golf. His latest video titled 'Is golf too expensive in 2021', is mostly about budget clubs. However there's a bit 4:30 in where he talks about the points that have been made in this discussion. Remember though, he is in Yorkshire. I have found the issues here much more so in the home counties. Not so out of the Southeast.
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Gary H
Handicap: 36
Berkshire
Joined: Nov 2014
Posts: 95
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Exactly what I've been saying...the top courses stay more pricey (just don't have or want the cheap tee time filler rates) and the pay and plays remain well priced...today is Sunday and normally expensive...Tee times UK shows 8 courses in and around Kent with tee times at or under £20...and that doesn't included the twilight rates that have another 4 courses available.....I don't get the issue?
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TSG
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