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Dougie Gray
Handicap: 36
Surrey
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 18
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Folks,
I'd like to ask your opinion on the correct ruling for a situation I was involved in last week.. I'm hoping to tell the story in an unbiased manner...
Three guys are playing a course they've not played before. On a hole, Player A tees off and his ball heads left towards small trees and a marked water hazard, so he plays another ball, declaring it as a provisional before he hits it etc.
When the players reach the area the initial ball headed, they can't find the ball and conclude it must be lost in the hazard..
This is where the fun begins..
Player A reckons he can drop a ball at estimated point of entry to the hazard and play his 3rd stroke from there, and pick up the provisional ball.
Player B reckons he has to play the provisional ball he has hit from the tee, and play his 4th stroke from where it is lying.
Your feedback on who is correct would be welcome..
dg
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,955
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It depends on how serious the game is. The rule for a hazard (my understanding) is you must be able to confirm 100% your ball is in the hazard. If so you can drop at point of entry. That would be the way we play it. If you are not sure you are in the hazard, perhaps you may have flown the hazard but still cant be sure then the provisional is in play. As a futher point in the US open Johnson did it and they could not confirm it was in as they couldnt see the ball so he had to go back to the tee.
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Dougie Gray
Handicap: 36
Surrey
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 18
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All players agreed it had to be in the hazard.. The ground surrounding it was fairly clear / open, so we concluded / all agreed it couldn't be anywhere else..
dg
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Russell Middlet...
Handicap: 36
Essex
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 387
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Posted a similar question a few weeks back and the replies I had were,
If you are certain the ball went into the water hazard then you drop a ball and take the penalty shot (rules for ball lost in a hazard).
If you are not sure the ball went into the water hazard, either you think you might have gone over it, etc. Then play the provisional ball.
That's the conclusions that were reached from my question.
The main point here is to decide if the ball went into the water hazard or not! Once you have decided that question then the way you continue your round of golf is already decided for you.
Russ
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Dougie Gray
Handicap: 36
Surrey
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 18
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Gents,
Thanks for the responses.. Clear now if the situation were to come up again.
dg
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Ian Halliwell
Handicap: 25
Lancashire
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 82
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Johnsons case was pretty peculiar, in that the tv clearly showed it went into the hazard area. the spectators said it had, i presume gmc thought so too, but beause it could not be seen, he walks back.... now i cant see under water so if you hit into a water hazard but cant see the ball, well i think you can see my problem... wise sages out there........ help please.
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,955
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As of 1st January 2008 the R&A and USGA use the new combined rules. So the rules are the same across the world.
PGA rule 26-1 clearly states - 'It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck towards a water hazard is in the hazard. In order to apply this Rule, it must be known or virtually certain that the ball is in the hazard.' ie if the players agree the ball is virtually certain to be in the hazard then it is and a 'one stroke penalty drop' can be taken.
So, none the wiser why Johnson and his playing partners couldn't agree the ball 'virtually certain' to have been lost in the hazard but for the rest of us it seems clear.
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Derek Cooper
Handicap: 12
Western Australia
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Dougie Gray wrote:Folks,
I'd like to ask your opinion on the correct ruling for a situation I was involved in last week.. I'm hoping to tell the story in an unbiased manner...
Three guys are playing a course they've not played before. On a hole, Player A tees off and his ball heads left towards small trees and a marked water hazard, so he plays another ball, declaring it as a provisional before he hits it etc.
When the players reach the area the initial ball headed, they can't find the ball and conclude it must be lost in the hazard..
This is where the fun begins..
Player A reckons he can drop a ball at estimated point of entry to the hazard and play his 3rd stroke from there, and pick up the provisional ball.
Player B reckons he has to play the provisional ball he has hit from the tee, and play his 4th stroke from where it is lying.
Your feedback on who is correct would be welcome..
dg
I believe that if the ball has been declared lost the player must then play the provisional ball. The subsequent stroke would therefore be his fourth stroke.
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Mark Hayes
Handicap: 36
Kent
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 15
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I beleive that everyone is right!
1/ If you and your playing partners agree that your first ball is most likely in the hazard you can drop another ball based on a 'penalty drop' (lateral hazard - red stakes, 2 club lengths from estimated point of entry; water hazard - yellow stakes, 2 clubs lengths keeping point of entry to hazard between you and the hole - big difference 'cos may mean you have to go around the other side of the hazard).
2/ If you and your playing partners can't agree that your first ball is most likely in the hazard you go and play your provisional ball (4th shot).
3/ If when walking to the point of your first ball you think, I'm not sure it's in the hazard and if it's not I don't want to find it then you can declare it lost (without even looking for it) and walk straight to your provisional ball and play your 4th shot.
Clear as mud?
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,955
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YOU CANNOT DECLARE A BALL LOST.
Sorry to shout, but the number of people who seem think you can declare a ball lost is astounding. You cannot. If you find it you have to play it or declare it unplayable except when you have already played a provisional from a point nearer the hole than where the original is found (and before it is found).
Oh, and you cannot 'agree' that the ball is lost in the hazard. It "must be known or virtually certain" that the ball is in the hazard so to answer the original question;
if it is "known or virtually certain" that the ball is in the hazard the player can drop in accordance with Rule 26.
if it is not "known or ...etc" that the ball is in the hazard and the ball isn't found within 5 minutes it is lost and the player plays his provisional.
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Ian Halliwell
Handicap: 25
Lancashire
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 82
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i think we all agree what we would have done, but im still confused, mesmorised as to why johnson went back to the tee............i may see him or gmc when i return in august to orlando , i wil ask them and let you all know.
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TSG
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